[OHSW.org] Neo900: Crowd funding experience

Neal H. Walfield neal at walfield.org
So Nov 3 12:44:21 CET 2013


Perhaps Nikolaus could give a short presentation detailing his
experience with his crowd funding experiences?

Neal

At Sun, 3 Nov 2013 11:34:43 +0100,
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 03.11.2013 um 10:17 schrieb Parchet Michaël:
> 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Do you have think about kickstater or other cloud founding site to finance your projects ?
> 
> Yes, but we decided to do it differently, i.e. more innovative. These days every project is done
> through such a cloud founding service, and projects like Ubuntu Edge did fail. To some extent
> by setting unachievable goals.
> 
> One of the key points for a campaign to succeed is not the platform to collect donations, but a
> network with those who are interested (here talk.maemo.org). Even Kickstarter points this out in
> their FAQ ("In most cases, the majority of funding initially comes from the fans and friends of
> each project."). So why do we need such platforms if we have to send fans and friends to them
> and then they give the addresses and money back to us?
> 
> And, it gives us the flexibility to run the campaign continuously instead of defining more or less
> arbitrary limits (in time and budget). For me, such limits have the tendency of forcing people to
> donate, not because they are convinced by the idea, but because the deadline comes close.
> This would be in contradiction of the "Independence" we are looking for.
> 
> All this is experience from the GTA04 "Group Tour" project, we did run some time ago.
> 
> BR,
> Nikolaus
> 
> > 
> > Best regards
> > 
> > mparchet
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> Le 3 nov. 2013 à 08:39, "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <hns at goldelico.com> a écrit :
> >> 
> >> Hi Neil,
> >> 
> >>> Am 02.11.2013 um 23:07 schrieb NeilBrown:
> >>> 
> >>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 12:03:31 +0100 "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"
> >>> <hns at goldelico.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Hi Neil,
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Am 02.11.2013 um 09:46 schrieb NeilBrown:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 08:23:29 +0100 "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"
> >>>>> <hns at goldelico.com> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>> the new Neo900 (GTA04b7) project has been started within the OpenPhoenux community!
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> It is now open for collecting donations to finance the initial development.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> For all details, please refer to the project home page: http://www.neo900.org/
> >> 
> >> We now hit the 15k funding level! This means that we will be able to push the project to
> >> build some working prototypes to learn about issues (as described below).
> >> 
> >> I should also note that the funding is not intended to be time limited. Because it is
> >> more or less a voucher system. So if someone can't donate immediately, it is no
> >> problem to jump in let's say next month. And, it is no problem if we go beyond 25k
> >> because more donators (vouchers) mean that we can the expect to produce
> >> more devices (which may also bring down the production cost to an even more
> >> attractive level).
> >> 
> >> So we do exactly opposite as a standard fundraising, by having no limits (neither
> >> in time nor in budget).
> >> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Let the Phoenux fly :)
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Nikolaus
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>> I've been reading through the web site and have a couple of comments.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 1/  From the 3x3 table on the front page:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>        IrDA and Consumer IR
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>  Use your phone as a universal TV remote or...
> >>>>>  connect the serial console via IrDA link. Low
> >>>>>  level debugging couldn't be made easier.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> unless you know something I don't, it isn't possible to do low-level debugging
> >>>>> over a serial console on the IrDA link.  Certainly not possible to capture
> >>>>> early-boot messages.
> >>>>> For low-level kernel debugging I find a serial cable indispensable.
> >>> 
> >>> No reply to this bit?  Should the reference to low level debugging through IR
> >>> be removed, or can someone tell me how to do it?
> >> 
> >> Well, I have not written this in detail. I think it is possible to use an IR interface
> >> as a simple UART3, but there might be an issue with impulse shaping. AFAIR,
> >> an IrDA transceiver works with impulses while UART uses states, i.e. sending
> >> a 0x00-byte would be 9 clocks 0 on UART but 9 impulses on IrDA. This might
> >> be incompatible. Anyways there is no problem of having both. Well, a space
> >> problem.
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Also the "Feature Overview" in neo900-feasibility.pdf has an 'x' next to
> >>>>> 'IrDA' for both Neo900 possibilities.  I guess 'x' must mean "yes".  I
> >>>>> usually find "x" to me "no" and a "tick" to mean yes.  Maybe it's a cultural
> >>>>> thing :-)
> >>>> 
> >>>> Yes, appears to be so. Here we see an "x" like a checkmark "✓" meaning "yes".
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Also the table doesn't list any Bluetooth for the GTA04.  Not even an 'x'.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Oops - that is an omission.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I have fixed the document.
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 2/ In neo900-feasibility.pdf
> >>>>> section 14 - Dual/Quad-core
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> -  OMAP4: yes, Jorjin OMAP4 module, same CPU as PandaBoard; but we donʻt know
> >>>>> all hardware details and/or software (power management)
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> This seems to imply that we do know all the detail of power management for
> >>>>> the omap3.  But we do not.
> >>>>> The power usage on the GTA04 is still woeful.  This may not be directly
> >>>>> related to the OMAP3 software, but I suspect it is partly related.
> >>>> 
> >>>> What I don't know is if all peripherals are powered down as much as possible.
> >>>> Suspects are the ITG3200 and the RS232/IrDA drivers.
> >>> 
> >>> I'm fairly sure the ITG3200 is being powered down.  It isn't if you don't
> >>> have a driver and when I wrote a driver I save a couple of mA.
> >> 
> >> I remember there might be a problem powering down the VAUX driving it only
> >> but keeping the 1.8V. This might lead to some leakage current in the range of
> >> seveal mA. But I have not looked how we did hook it up and what the driver is
> >> really doing on suspend.
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> Don't know about RS232...  though I do know that plugging a serial cable in
> >>> increase the current drain.
> >> 
> >> Yes, that is to be expected.
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> As I think I've said before, I'm very suspicious of internal USB.
> >>> It is the reason we cannot safely enter "off-mode", and small changes there
> >>> seem to have big effects on current.  e.g. if I hold 'reset' low, current
> >>> usage goes up quite a bit.
> >> 
> >> Yes, I remember - but have no new theory why it is so. The data sheet says
> >> that holding reset of the USB3322 should power it completely down.
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> In general the issue of power-management is largely missing from the
> >>>>> feasibility study.  It should really state how power (in)efficient the GTA04
> >>>>> is and advise that there is no guarantee that the Neo900 will be any better.
> >>>>> (Anyone know how power-efficient the N900 is?).
> >>>> 
> >>>> Yes, the N900 (RX51) is better than the GTA04. AFAIK, there is no study
> >>>> discussing why they are such better.
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Also: what are the details that we don't know?  I managed to find a TRM for
> >>>>> the OMAP4430 without much effort.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Generally the evaluation result is that we know a lot more about OMAP3/GTA04.
> >>>> 
> >>>> But nothing (except theory like a TRM) for the OMAP4. I.e. we could make a
> >>>> lot of mistakes hooking up the OMPA4 in a way that prevents optimal power
> >>>> management.
> >>>> 
> >>>> And, if we take the Pandabaord as an example, it has no power management
> >>>> and therefore we don't have a power-efficiency optimzed blueprint to learn from.
> >>>> 
> >>>> This sums up in that we know the OMAP3 better to optimize power demand than
> >>>> an OMAP4.
> >>>> 
> >>>> With the current 2-PCB approach it could become feasible to develop an
> >>>> OMAP4 CPU board later.
> >>> 
> >>> That's an interesting idea ... would a replacement CPU board be significantly
> >>> less effort/cost than a whole new GTA04 board?
> >> 
> >> No. We still need a new board and placing an DM3730 or an OMAP4 is
> >> almost the same work. It is even higher with the OMAP4 since we don't know the 6k
> >> pages TRM in all details. Thre may be things like a GPIO112 which is called such but
> >> turns out to be a GPI112, i.e. input only. So you can use it as an interrupt input.
> >> This is a mistake we did in the GTA04A2 revision (now fixed in A3 and later)...
> >> 
> >>> An OMAP4 (or better) would certainly make the project a lot more interesting
> >>> to me personally.
> >> 
> >> Or besser = OMAP5 :) Well, they are not even available yet and TI has a different
> >> sales model for OMAP4 and OMAP5. They sell to a selected group of module
> >> manufacturers only, so we have no chance to get 200 or 2k chips. Not even 20k.
> >> AFAIK, it starts with 500k chips/year that you can get them directly.
> >> 
> >> So this is unfortunately too much challenge so that we do not yet consider it.
> >> It may become easier in ca. 12 months when the newest OMAP chips become
> >> more widespread. But then they are no longer the cutting edge.
> >> 
> >> BR,
> >> NIkolaus
> >> _______________________________________________
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