[Gta04-owner] vouchers

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Xavi,
I did not yet find time to write my latest reasoning about the idea.

I came to the same conclusion: the voucher/micro credit idea does
not solve the issue that at the end someone must finally be interested
to own the GTA04 and pay for the material and production.

Unfortunately, vouchers can't reduce the cost per unit. It would just
spread the payment over a longer time frame.

Well, that is something not explicitly mentioned in the Group Tour
conditions - you don't have to pay immediately. You could just register
and wait with final payment until the end of the subscription time
frame comes closer (we will send some automatic reminders if you
forget :).

BR,
Nikolaus




Am 14.12.2011 um 14:41 schrieb Xavi Drudis Ferran:

> Sorry but I must be thick, I don't fully understand the voucher concept. 
> 
> On Wed 14/12/11 09:53 , Ed Kapitein <ed at kapitein.org> wrote:
>> A voucher would cost 100 euro and would be valid for a year.
>> A voucher would give you a 100 euro discount if you buy a GTA04.
>> 
> 
> Ok. So you pay now 100 EUR. If enough people put money you 
> choose either to lose it as a donation or to put 400 EUR more at a convenient
> time for you between production and end of year and get a GTA04. If not enough people
> put money you get your money back. 
> 
> I think I understand this far.
> 
>> - Just 1 person (me) is buying a voucher
>> no production will start and i will get my 100 euro back.
>> 
> 
> Ok .
> 
>> - over 2000 people buy a voucher. 
>> Production can start and people can buy GTAs and redeem their vouchers.
>> if all devices are sold, the people with still vallid vouchers can get
>> there 
>> money back.
>> 
> 
> Just how many units are produced ? 
> 
> Let's say we need 500 EUR for a group tour
> gta04 (as it was before vouches, and from memory, I don't remember the 
> exact number).
> 
> So 2000 vouches bring 200 000 EUR, and Golden Delicious can produce 
> 400 GTA04s (plus as many as group tour subscriptions). Maybe I fail 
> to understand the structure of costs here, but I haven't understood what 
> in the voucher scheme can lower the costs.
> 
>> if not all devices are sold, people will loose their 100 euro after a
>> year 
>> and you can sell the remaining GTA04 at any price, they are already payed
>> for.
>> (and compenstate the voucher holders at ratio)
>> 
> 
> What if 500 of the 2000 people who have a voucher want a GTA04 ? 
> Will 100 lose they voucher for lack of units ? Which 100 ? 
> Will more units be produced ? With what money ? 
> Will they have to wait for more people to vouch more ? 
> If so the story repeats itself later...
> 
> 
>> Think of the vouchers as a kind of micro credit
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcredit)
>> 
> 
> Let me exagerate a little, I tend to think of debt as a form of light slavery (more or less light
> depending on the violence available to back default). Microcredits
> are better than credits mostly because they are smaller, but 
> they still carry the problem of repaying them. Aeternal growth is 
> somehow implicit in credit schemes. (you get money now 
> that you will repay later, but if you haven't been able to save the
> money until now why should you be able later? only because
> wealth is assumed to grow generally?)
> 
> In fact I very much welcomed the manifesto rejecting forms of 
> debt financed production (possibly from less radical standpoints, not
> that I'm as radical as meant here either). 
> 
> Yet this is not of much interest here, I just would like to understand
> the voucher idea.
> 
>> For me, and perhaps quiet a few people, spending near 500 euro's for a
>> phone 
>> while i still have a good working GTA02, is not justifiable.
>> But "lending" a 100 euro towards this project, with little change of
>> loosing 
>> the money seems like a change worth taking for those with warm feelings
>> about 
>> the openphone concept.
>> 
> 
> I can easily understand that 500 may be too much for a smartphone and 100 
> can be nice for a donation. Donations are already accepted.
> 
> I can understand you can spare 100 for a few weeks loan if you get them back.
> I can understand you trust as very very likely that you'll get them back, since
> we all trust the good work of people involved and there is no reason for the 
> voucher money to evaporate if production is not started.
> 
> I can understand that you prefer paying 100 now and 400 later, closer to 
> shipping than paying 500 now. 
> 
> But I don't realy understand than you can justify paying 100 now and 400 later
> for a gta04 and not justify paying 500 now (or 450 if you are early). The 
> interest, cost of opportunity etc. in paying later should not be worth so much. 
> So is it a problem of trust about the outcome or what exactly (sorry, I didn't
> mean to be inquisitive, you don't have to justify your decisions to me).
> 
>> Do you think this can work?
>> 
> 
> I guess I haven't undestood it. 
> 
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