[Community] Welcome to new Project: Neo900
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
hns at goldelico.com
Sun Nov 3 12:06:28 CET 2013
Am 03.11.2013 um 12:00 schrieb Parchet Michaël:
> Hello,
>
> What's the neo900 dimension ?
>
> Can I put it in a pocket or a box ?
Same as Nokia N900 - but 2-3mm thicker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N900 says:
Dimensions 110.9 mm (4.37 in) (h)
59.8 mm (2.35 in) (w)
18 mm (0.71 in) (d)
19.55 mm at thickest part
>
> Thanks for your answer ?
>
> Best regards
>
> mparchet
>
>
>
>> Le 3 nov. 2013 à 11:34, "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <hns at goldelico.com> a écrit :
>>
>>
>>> Am 03.11.2013 um 10:17 schrieb Parchet Michaël:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Do you have think about kickstater or other cloud founding site to finance your projects ?
>>
>> Yes, but we decided to do it differently, i.e. more innovative. These days every project is done
>> through such a cloud founding service, and projects like Ubuntu Edge did fail. To some extent
>> by setting unachievable goals.
>>
>> One of the key points for a campaign to succeed is not the platform to collect donations, but a
>> network with those who are interested (here talk.maemo.org). Even Kickstarter points this out in
>> their FAQ ("In most cases, the majority of funding initially comes from the fans and friends of
>> each project."). So why do we need such platforms if we have to send fans and friends to them
>> and then they give the addresses and money back to us?
>>
>> And, it gives us the flexibility to run the campaign continuously instead of defining more or less
>> arbitrary limits (in time and budget). For me, such limits have the tendency of forcing people to
>> donate, not because they are convinced by the idea, but because the deadline comes close.
>> This would be in contradiction of the "Independence" we are looking for.
>>
>> All this is experience from the GTA04 "Group Tour" project, we did run some time ago.
>>
>> BR,
>> Nikolaus
>>
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> mparchet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Le 3 nov. 2013 à 08:39, "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <hns at goldelico.com> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Hi Neil,
>>>>
>>>>> Am 02.11.2013 um 23:07 schrieb NeilBrown:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 12:03:31 +0100 "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"
>>>>> <hns at goldelico.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Neil,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am 02.11.2013 um 09:46 schrieb NeilBrown:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 08:23:29 +0100 "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"
>>>>>>> <hns at goldelico.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> the new Neo900 (GTA04b7) project has been started within the OpenPhoenux community!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is now open for collecting donations to finance the initial development.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For all details, please refer to the project home page: http://www.neo900.org/
>>>>
>>>> We now hit the 15k funding level! This means that we will be able to push the project to
>>>> build some working prototypes to learn about issues (as described below).
>>>>
>>>> I should also note that the funding is not intended to be time limited. Because it is
>>>> more or less a voucher system. So if someone can't donate immediately, it is no
>>>> problem to jump in let's say next month. And, it is no problem if we go beyond 25k
>>>> because more donators (vouchers) mean that we can the expect to produce
>>>> more devices (which may also bring down the production cost to an even more
>>>> attractive level).
>>>>
>>>> So we do exactly opposite as a standard fundraising, by having no limits (neither
>>>> in time nor in budget).
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let the Phoenux fly :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nikolaus
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> I've been reading through the web site and have a couple of comments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1/ From the 3x3 table on the front page:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IrDA and Consumer IR
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Use your phone as a universal TV remote or...
>>>>>>> connect the serial console via IrDA link. Low
>>>>>>> level debugging couldn't be made easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> unless you know something I don't, it isn't possible to do low-level debugging
>>>>>>> over a serial console on the IrDA link. Certainly not possible to capture
>>>>>>> early-boot messages.
>>>>>>> For low-level kernel debugging I find a serial cable indispensable.
>>>>>
>>>>> No reply to this bit? Should the reference to low level debugging through IR
>>>>> be removed, or can someone tell me how to do it?
>>>>
>>>> Well, I have not written this in detail. I think it is possible to use an IR interface
>>>> as a simple UART3, but there might be an issue with impulse shaping. AFAIR,
>>>> an IrDA transceiver works with impulses while UART uses states, i.e. sending
>>>> a 0x00-byte would be 9 clocks 0 on UART but 9 impulses on IrDA. This might
>>>> be incompatible. Anyways there is no problem of having both. Well, a space
>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also the "Feature Overview" in neo900-feasibility.pdf has an 'x' next to
>>>>>>> 'IrDA' for both Neo900 possibilities. I guess 'x' must mean "yes". I
>>>>>>> usually find "x" to me "no" and a "tick" to mean yes. Maybe it's a cultural
>>>>>>> thing :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, appears to be so. Here we see an "x" like a checkmark "✓" meaning "yes".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also the table doesn't list any Bluetooth for the GTA04. Not even an 'x'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oops - that is an omission.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have fixed the document.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2/ In neo900-feasibility.pdf
>>>>>>> section 14 - Dual/Quad-core
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - OMAP4: yes, Jorjin OMAP4 module, same CPU as PandaBoard; but we donʻt know
>>>>>>> all hardware details and/or software (power management)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This seems to imply that we do know all the detail of power management for
>>>>>>> the omap3. But we do not.
>>>>>>> The power usage on the GTA04 is still woeful. This may not be directly
>>>>>>> related to the OMAP3 software, but I suspect it is partly related.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I don't know is if all peripherals are powered down as much as possible.
>>>>>> Suspects are the ITG3200 and the RS232/IrDA drivers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm fairly sure the ITG3200 is being powered down. It isn't if you don't
>>>>> have a driver and when I wrote a driver I save a couple of mA.
>>>>
>>>> I remember there might be a problem powering down the VAUX driving it only
>>>> but keeping the 1.8V. This might lead to some leakage current in the range of
>>>> seveal mA. But I have not looked how we did hook it up and what the driver is
>>>> really doing on suspend.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't know about RS232... though I do know that plugging a serial cable in
>>>>> increase the current drain.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that is to be expected.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I think I've said before, I'm very suspicious of internal USB.
>>>>> It is the reason we cannot safely enter "off-mode", and small changes there
>>>>> seem to have big effects on current. e.g. if I hold 'reset' low, current
>>>>> usage goes up quite a bit.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I remember - but have no new theory why it is so. The data sheet says
>>>> that holding reset of the USB3322 should power it completely down.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In general the issue of power-management is largely missing from the
>>>>>>> feasibility study. It should really state how power (in)efficient the GTA04
>>>>>>> is and advise that there is no guarantee that the Neo900 will be any better.
>>>>>>> (Anyone know how power-efficient the N900 is?).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, the N900 (RX51) is better than the GTA04. AFAIK, there is no study
>>>>>> discussing why they are such better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also: what are the details that we don't know? I managed to find a TRM for
>>>>>>> the OMAP4430 without much effort.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Generally the evaluation result is that we know a lot more about OMAP3/GTA04.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But nothing (except theory like a TRM) for the OMAP4. I.e. we could make a
>>>>>> lot of mistakes hooking up the OMPA4 in a way that prevents optimal power
>>>>>> management.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, if we take the Pandabaord as an example, it has no power management
>>>>>> and therefore we don't have a power-efficiency optimzed blueprint to learn from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This sums up in that we know the OMAP3 better to optimize power demand than
>>>>>> an OMAP4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the current 2-PCB approach it could become feasible to develop an
>>>>>> OMAP4 CPU board later.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's an interesting idea ... would a replacement CPU board be significantly
>>>>> less effort/cost than a whole new GTA04 board?
>>>>
>>>> No. We still need a new board and placing an DM3730 or an OMAP4 is
>>>> almost the same work. It is even higher with the OMAP4 since we don't know the 6k
>>>> pages TRM in all details. Thre may be things like a GPIO112 which is called such but
>>>> turns out to be a GPI112, i.e. input only. So you can use it as an interrupt input.
>>>> This is a mistake we did in the GTA04A2 revision (now fixed in A3 and later)...
>>>>
>>>>> An OMAP4 (or better) would certainly make the project a lot more interesting
>>>>> to me personally.
>>>>
>>>> Or besser = OMAP5 :) Well, they are not even available yet and TI has a different
>>>> sales model for OMAP4 and OMAP5. They sell to a selected group of module
>>>> manufacturers only, so we have no chance to get 200 or 2k chips. Not even 20k.
>>>> AFAIK, it starts with 500k chips/year that you can get them directly.
>>>>
>>>> So this is unfortunately too much challenge so that we do not yet consider it.
>>>> It may become easier in ca. 12 months when the newest OMAP chips become
>>>> more widespread. But then they are no longer the cutting edge.
>>>>
>>>> BR,
>>>> NIkolaus
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