[Community] Welcome to new Project: Neo900

Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller hns at goldelico.com
Sun Nov 3 12:06:28 CET 2013


Am 03.11.2013 um 12:00 schrieb Parchet Michaël:

> Hello,
> 
> What's the neo900 dimension ?
> 
> Can I put it in a pocket or a box ?

Same as Nokia N900 - but 2-3mm thicker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N900 says:

Dimensions	110.9 mm (4.37 in) (h)
59.8 mm (2.35 in) (w)
18 mm (0.71 in) (d)
19.55 mm at thickest part

> 
> Thanks for your answer ?
> 
> Best regards
> 
> mparchet
> 
> 
> 
>> Le 3 nov. 2013 à 11:34, "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <hns at goldelico.com> a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 03.11.2013 um 10:17 schrieb Parchet Michaël:
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> Do you have think about kickstater or other cloud founding site to finance your projects ?
>> 
>> Yes, but we decided to do it differently, i.e. more innovative. These days every project is done
>> through such a cloud founding service, and projects like Ubuntu Edge did fail. To some extent
>> by setting unachievable goals.
>> 
>> One of the key points for a campaign to succeed is not the platform to collect donations, but a
>> network with those who are interested (here talk.maemo.org). Even Kickstarter points this out in
>> their FAQ ("In most cases, the majority of funding initially comes from the fans and friends of
>> each project."). So why do we need such platforms if we have to send fans and friends to them
>> and then they give the addresses and money back to us?
>> 
>> And, it gives us the flexibility to run the campaign continuously instead of defining more or less
>> arbitrary limits (in time and budget). For me, such limits have the tendency of forcing people to
>> donate, not because they are convinced by the idea, but because the deadline comes close.
>> This would be in contradiction of the "Independence" we are looking for.
>> 
>> All this is experience from the GTA04 "Group Tour" project, we did run some time ago.
>> 
>> BR,
>> Nikolaus
>> 
>>> 
>>> Best regards
>>> 
>>> mparchet
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Le 3 nov. 2013 à 08:39, "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <hns at goldelico.com> a écrit :
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Neil,
>>>> 
>>>>> Am 02.11.2013 um 23:07 schrieb NeilBrown:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 12:03:31 +0100 "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"
>>>>> <hns at goldelico.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Neil,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Am 02.11.2013 um 09:46 schrieb NeilBrown:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 08:23:29 +0100 "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"
>>>>>>> <hns at goldelico.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> the new Neo900 (GTA04b7) project has been started within the OpenPhoenux community!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It is now open for collecting donations to finance the initial development.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> For all details, please refer to the project home page: http://www.neo900.org/
>>>> 
>>>> We now hit the 15k funding level! This means that we will be able to push the project to
>>>> build some working prototypes to learn about issues (as described below).
>>>> 
>>>> I should also note that the funding is not intended to be time limited. Because it is
>>>> more or less a voucher system. So if someone can't donate immediately, it is no
>>>> problem to jump in let's say next month. And, it is no problem if we go beyond 25k
>>>> because more donators (vouchers) mean that we can the expect to produce
>>>> more devices (which may also bring down the production cost to an even more
>>>> attractive level).
>>>> 
>>>> So we do exactly opposite as a standard fundraising, by having no limits (neither
>>>> in time nor in budget).
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Let the Phoenux fly :)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Nikolaus
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> I've been reading through the web site and have a couple of comments.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 1/  From the 3x3 table on the front page:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>      IrDA and Consumer IR
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Use your phone as a universal TV remote or...
>>>>>>> connect the serial console via IrDA link. Low
>>>>>>> level debugging couldn't be made easier.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> unless you know something I don't, it isn't possible to do low-level debugging
>>>>>>> over a serial console on the IrDA link.  Certainly not possible to capture
>>>>>>> early-boot messages.
>>>>>>> For low-level kernel debugging I find a serial cable indispensable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> No reply to this bit?  Should the reference to low level debugging through IR
>>>>> be removed, or can someone tell me how to do it?
>>>> 
>>>> Well, I have not written this in detail. I think it is possible to use an IR interface
>>>> as a simple UART3, but there might be an issue with impulse shaping. AFAIR,
>>>> an IrDA transceiver works with impulses while UART uses states, i.e. sending
>>>> a 0x00-byte would be 9 clocks 0 on UART but 9 impulses on IrDA. This might
>>>> be incompatible. Anyways there is no problem of having both. Well, a space
>>>> problem.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also the "Feature Overview" in neo900-feasibility.pdf has an 'x' next to
>>>>>>> 'IrDA' for both Neo900 possibilities.  I guess 'x' must mean "yes".  I
>>>>>>> usually find "x" to me "no" and a "tick" to mean yes.  Maybe it's a cultural
>>>>>>> thing :-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes, appears to be so. Here we see an "x" like a checkmark "✓" meaning "yes".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also the table doesn't list any Bluetooth for the GTA04.  Not even an 'x'.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Oops - that is an omission.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have fixed the document.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 2/ In neo900-feasibility.pdf
>>>>>>> section 14 - Dual/Quad-core
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -  OMAP4: yes, Jorjin OMAP4 module, same CPU as PandaBoard; but we donʻt know
>>>>>>> all hardware details and/or software (power management)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This seems to imply that we do know all the detail of power management for
>>>>>>> the omap3.  But we do not.
>>>>>>> The power usage on the GTA04 is still woeful.  This may not be directly
>>>>>>> related to the OMAP3 software, but I suspect it is partly related.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What I don't know is if all peripherals are powered down as much as possible.
>>>>>> Suspects are the ITG3200 and the RS232/IrDA drivers.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm fairly sure the ITG3200 is being powered down.  It isn't if you don't
>>>>> have a driver and when I wrote a driver I save a couple of mA.
>>>> 
>>>> I remember there might be a problem powering down the VAUX driving it only
>>>> but keeping the 1.8V. This might lead to some leakage current in the range of
>>>> seveal mA. But I have not looked how we did hook it up and what the driver is
>>>> really doing on suspend.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Don't know about RS232...  though I do know that plugging a serial cable in
>>>>> increase the current drain.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, that is to be expected.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I think I've said before, I'm very suspicious of internal USB.
>>>>> It is the reason we cannot safely enter "off-mode", and small changes there
>>>>> seem to have big effects on current.  e.g. if I hold 'reset' low, current
>>>>> usage goes up quite a bit.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, I remember - but have no new theory why it is so. The data sheet says
>>>> that holding reset of the USB3322 should power it completely down.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In general the issue of power-management is largely missing from the
>>>>>>> feasibility study.  It should really state how power (in)efficient the GTA04
>>>>>>> is and advise that there is no guarantee that the Neo900 will be any better.
>>>>>>> (Anyone know how power-efficient the N900 is?).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes, the N900 (RX51) is better than the GTA04. AFAIK, there is no study
>>>>>> discussing why they are such better.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also: what are the details that we don't know?  I managed to find a TRM for
>>>>>>> the OMAP4430 without much effort.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Generally the evaluation result is that we know a lot more about OMAP3/GTA04.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But nothing (except theory like a TRM) for the OMAP4. I.e. we could make a
>>>>>> lot of mistakes hooking up the OMPA4 in a way that prevents optimal power
>>>>>> management.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And, if we take the Pandabaord as an example, it has no power management
>>>>>> and therefore we don't have a power-efficiency optimzed blueprint to learn from.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This sums up in that we know the OMAP3 better to optimize power demand than
>>>>>> an OMAP4.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> With the current 2-PCB approach it could become feasible to develop an
>>>>>> OMAP4 CPU board later.
>>>>> 
>>>>> That's an interesting idea ... would a replacement CPU board be significantly
>>>>> less effort/cost than a whole new GTA04 board?
>>>> 
>>>> No. We still need a new board and placing an DM3730 or an OMAP4 is
>>>> almost the same work. It is even higher with the OMAP4 since we don't know the 6k
>>>> pages TRM in all details. Thre may be things like a GPIO112 which is called such but
>>>> turns out to be a GPI112, i.e. input only. So you can use it as an interrupt input.
>>>> This is a mistake we did in the GTA04A2 revision (now fixed in A3 and later)...
>>>> 
>>>>> An OMAP4 (or better) would certainly make the project a lot more interesting
>>>>> to me personally.
>>>> 
>>>> Or besser = OMAP5 :) Well, they are not even available yet and TI has a different
>>>> sales model for OMAP4 and OMAP5. They sell to a selected group of module
>>>> manufacturers only, so we have no chance to get 200 or 2k chips. Not even 20k.
>>>> AFAIK, it starts with 500k chips/year that you can get them directly.
>>>> 
>>>> So this is unfortunately too much challenge so that we do not yet consider it.
>>>> It may become easier in ca. 12 months when the newest OMAP chips become
>>>> more widespread. But then they are no longer the cutting edge.
>>>> 
>>>> BR,
>>>> NIkolaus
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